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Tipitaka >> Abhidhamma Pitaka >> Kathavatthu >> ‘’’Kathavatthu Ch6’’’ Pali Versions : Pali English Version and Pali Devanagri Version =Kathavatthu Chapter6= 317. Is Assurance Unconditioned ? 185 1. Of Assurance salvation 1 Controverted Point. — That ‘ Assurance ’ is unconditioned. From the Commentary. — In the Word: ‘ Capable of entering into Assurance , the culmination in things that are good, ’ 2 the Ariyan Path is meant. But inasmuch as a person therein would not forfeit salvation even if that Path which him had arisen were to pass away, therefore there is an opinion, among Andhakas for instance, that this Assurance is unconditioned in the sense of being eternal. 3 1 Th . — Then is Assurance other unconditioned called Nibbana, or the Shelter, the Cave, the Befuge, the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny. Yet you would call both alike unconditioned. Are there then two kinds of unconditioned? If you deny, you cannot affirm ; if you assent, then all we know there are two Shelters . . . two Goals . . . two Nibbanas. If you deny, you cannot affirm your proposition ; if you assent, then do * you allow that of the two Nibbanas one is higher than the other, gublimer than the other, exalted more than the other ? Is there a boundary, or a division, or a line, or an interstice 4 between them ? Of course you deny. . . . 2 Again, are there any who enter into and attain Assurance, cause it to arise, to keep arising, set it up, continue to set it up, bring it to pass, to come into being, produce it, continue to produce it ? ‘Of course,’ you say. 1 Niyamo, as before (Y. 4). 2 Anguttara-NIk., i. 122. Of. Sayyutta-Nilc., iii. 225. 3 Or permanent, n i c c a. 4 See above, II. 11. Of Assurance 186 VI. 1. But are these terms that you can apply to what is uncon- ditioned ? Of course not. . . . 3 Again, is the Path (the Fourfold) 'unconditioned? ‘ Nay,’ you say, ‘ conditioned.’ 1 Yet you would make Assur- ance unconditioned ; the Path of Stream-Winning, Once- Returning, Never-Returning, Arahantship, conditioned ; but Assurance of Stream-Winning, etc., unconditioned ! . . . 4 If then these four stages of Assurance be uncon- ditioned, and Nibbana be unconditioned, are there five kinds of the unconditioned ? If you assent, you are in the same difficulty as before (§ 1). 5 Finally, is false Assurance 2 unconditioned? ‘No, conditioned,’ you say. But has true Assurance the same quality ? Here you must deny. . . . 6 A. — If I am wrong, would you say that, if Assurance having arisen for anyone and ceased, his work of making sure salvation would be cancelled ? Th. — No. A. — Then Assurance must be unconditioned is, it cannot begin and cease. Th. — But your argument can be applied to false Assurance. You would not therefore call that uncon- ditioned ! 2. Of Causal Genesis. Controverted Point . — That the causal elements in the law of causal genesis are unconditioned. From the Commentary. — Because of the Word in the chapter on causation — ‘ whether Tathagatas arise or do not arise, this elemental datum which remains fixed,' 1 etc., some, as the Pubbaseliyas and the Mahiijsasakas, have arrived at the view here affirmed. 1 This is exactly similar to the opening argument in Vi. Ml. 1 ‘ Since it is something that has a genesis and a cessation.’ — Corny. 2 Micchatta-niyama, assurance in the wrong direction, applied to the five heinous crimes (p. 71, n. 4) which entail retribution in the next existence. 320-21. Is it Unconditioned ? 187 3 Th.- — Would you say that any single term in each clause of the formula of causal genesis refers to some- thing unconditioned, for instance, ‘ignorance,’ or ‘karma,’ in the clause ‘because of ignorance, karma,’ etc.? No? Then how can you maintain your thesis ? 4 P. M. — If we are wrong, why did the Exalted One say as follows: Because of birth, bhikkhus, comes decay and death ” : — whether Tathagatas arise or not, this element stands as the establishing of things as effects, as the marking out of things as effects, as the cause of this or that. Con- cerning this element a Tailiagata becomes enlightened, and penetrates it. Thus enlightened and penetrating, he declares, teaches, makes known, lays it down, reveals, dispenses, makes manifest, and behold! he saith: “ Because of birth, bhikkhus, comes decay and death.” “ Because of the tendency to become 1 comes birth. Because of .. . and so on, back to.” “ Became of ignorance comes karma.” Thus, bhikkhus, this element, stable, constant, immutable, is called a causal term the law of causal genesis ’ ? 2 * * Surely then the causal element in that law is uncondi- tioned. 5 Th. — In the clause ‘Because of ignorance karma,’ the former is that which establishes, which marks out the latter as its effect. And Nibbana is unconditioned — you affirm both of these ? Yes ? Then are there two uncondi- tioneds ? . . . two shelters . . . (as in § 1) ? 6 And if in the next clause : ‘ Because of karma, con- 1 Or ‘ be reborn.’ 2 Sayyutta-Nik., II. 25. ‘The sense in which each term (anga) of the law of causal genesis is termed Paticca-samuppada is stated in the Vibhanga on the Paticea-samuppad a. 5 — Corny. See Vibhanga, ‘ Paccayakara-vibhanga,’ pp. 135-192. It is interesting that this term for the Paticca-samuppada, peculiar, it may be, to the Vibhanga, is not used by our Commentary. Causes by which dhamma’s (things as effects) are established, are marked out, are called the thitata, the niyamata, of dhamma’s. These terms, with idappaccayata, are synonymous with paticca-samuppada, and signify, not the abstract statement of the law, but the concrete causal element. Of the Four Truths 188 VI. 3. sciousness,’ you affirm that karma is unconditioned, 1 are there then three unconditioneds ? . . . 7 And so on, affirming that each of the remaining nine terms and Nibbana are unconditioned : — are there then twelve unconditioneds? . . . twelve shelters, twelve refuges, etc. ? Of course you deny, hence you cannot affirm that the causal term in the law of causal genesis is unconditioned. 2 3. Of the Four Truths. Controverted Point. — That the Four Truths are uncon- ditioned. From the Commentary. — Some, like the Pubbaseliyas, hold this belief, deriving it from the Sutta : ‘ These four, bhihhhus, are stable , constant,’ etc. 3 They draw a distinction between a ‘fact’ and a 1 truth,’ considering that the former is conditioned, the latter uncondi- tioned. In the Third Truth they disallow the existence of any corre- sponding fact. 4 1 Th . — Do you then also admit one, but four Nibbanas? For if you do, is there among these four a boundary, division, line or interstice, different degrees as to loftiness, excellence or sublimity? 5 . . . 2 You affirm, do you not, that each Truth is uncon- ditioned. Take the first Truth on fact and nature of 111 : is 111 itself unconditioned ? You deny — that is, you mean that bodily ill, mental ill, grief, lamentation, melan- choly or despair is conditioned ? Or the second Truth on the cause of 111 — is that cause unconditioned? You deny. . . . Then you must equally deny that desires of sense, desire for after- life, or desire to end life, is uncon- ditioned? Or the fourth Truth of the Path to Cessation of 1 The PTS edition gives erroneously a negative reply. Of. Bh edition, and §§ 5, 7. 2 The point is that only Nibbana is unconditioned. 3 See below. 4 Lakkhana-saccar) (Truth) is the statement of the charac- teristics of a vatthu-saccai) (fact) . s See VI. 1, § 1 ; II. 11 . 323-5. Are they Unconditioned t 189 111 — is the Path 1 itself unconditioned? You deny. . . . Then you do not mean that right views, right inten- tions . . . right concentration are unconditioned ? 3 You admit then that III, its Cause, the Path are con- ditioned, and all the factors of those facts are conditioned, but deny that the abstract statement of each fact as a ‘ Truth ’ is conditioned 3 — which cannot be. . . . 4 Take now the Third Truth on the Cessation of 111 — is Cessation unconditioned? ‘ Yes,’ you say ? 3 Why then, if the First Truth is unconditioned, is not 111 uncon- ditioned ? Or the Cause ? Or the Path ? 5 In all but the Third Truth, you maintain that the true thing is conditioned — why not in the Third ? 6 P.— But if I am wrong, why was it said by the Exalted One : ‘ These four things, bhikkhus, are stable, con- stant, immutable. Which are the four l “ This is III!” — this, hhikkhus, is stable, constant, immutable. “ This is the cause of III . . . the Cessation of III . . . the course leading to the Cessation of III!” — this, hhikkhus, is stable, constant, immutable. These are the four ’ Surely then the Four Truths are unconditioned. 4 5 4. Of the Four Immaterial Spheres Life and Thought, Controverted Point. — That the sphere of infinite space is unconditioned. From the Commentary. — Because of the Word, ‘ the four Imma- terial^ are imperturbable,' some hold they are all unconditioned. 1 Th. — Are you implying that it is in this respect identical with Nibbana, the Shelter, the Cave, the Befuge, 1 The Ariyan or Noble Eightfold Path, not the Eour Paths. The latter are really one, divided into four stages, each of which has eight factors (p. 188, n. 5). 2 In the PTS edition (p.323) the line Dukkhasaceap asan- kbatam should read . . . sankhatam. 3 ‘Cessation’ (nirodha) is a synonym for Nibbana — the extinc- tion of 111 and its Causes. Hence the opponent’s view. 4 Sayyutta-Nik., v. 430. 5 In the sense of being eternally, constantly, not occasionally, true. 190 Of the Four Immaterial Spheres YI. 4. the Goal, the Past-Decease, the Ambrosial? You deny. . . . Then you cannot so class it. If you affirm, we may then have two Unconditioneds, two Nibbanas. . . . 2 You admit, do you not, that the sphere of infinite space is a form of rebirth, a destination, an abode of beings, a sequel in living, a matrix of birth, a station for reborn consciousness, an acquiring of individuality ? Then is the unconditioned to be so described ? Of course not. . . . Is there karma which brings us to rebirth in that sphere ? £ Yes,’ you say. Then is there karma which brings about rebirth in the unconditioned ? Of course you deny. . . . There are beings who for their deserts are reborn in that sphere of infinite space, but are there any who for their deserts are reborn in the unconditioned ? Of course you deny. . . . 3 Do any beings become born, decay, die, decease, and spring up again in that sphere ? Yes ? But surely not in the unconditioned. . . . Does mind in its four constituents 1 exist in that sphere ? Yes ? But hardly in the unconditioned. . . . You cannot call the latter a plane of life with four constituents, as is the former. 4 Opponent —Uni did not the Exalted One say that the four Immaterial spheres are imperturbable? 2 * * Surely then we may call them unconditioned. 5. Of the attaining to Cessation. Controverted Point . — That the attainment of Cessation is unconditioned. From the Commentary . — By the attainment of Cessation is here meant the suspension of conscious procedure in Jhana. As something 1 Of the five ‘ aggregates 5 of being, only ‘ body ’ is absent. 2 Aneja, ana nja; Anguttara-Nik., ii. 184: he who has entered into the Jhanas so called is said to have won the Imper- turbable. 327-28. Is Cessation Unconditioned ? 191 done^ attained, it is called ‘ completed,’ but it cannot be spoken of as conditioned or unconditioned, since the features of one state or the other are absent. But some, as the Andhakas and Uttarapathakas, hold that, because it is not conditioned, it is therefore unconditioned. 1 Th . — Does this mean that this state is Nibbana, the Shelter, etc. ? You deny. Then are both similarly described as unconditioned ? You affirm ? Then are there two unconditioneds . . . two Nibbanas ? . . . 2 Are there any who attain to Cessation, acquire it, cause it to rise, to keep rising, set up, induce, produce, bring to pass, make to be born, to happen ? If so, can you so speak of the unconditioned ? Of course not. . . . 3 Is there apparent such a thing as a purging through, emerging from, 1 Cessation ? If so, is there the same from the unconditioned ? Of course not. . . . In attaining Cessation, first speech, then action, then consciousness ceases. Can you so speak of attaining the unconditioned ? In emerging from Cessation, first consciousness, then action, then speech occurs. Can you so speak of emerging from the unconditioned ? 4 After emerging from Cessation, one is in touch with three contacts : that of the void, of the signless, of the unhankered-after. 2 Can you so speak of emerging from the unconditioned ? Or that, when one emerges from Cessation, consciousness is inclined for, tends to, takes shelter in solitude ? 5 A. U. — If we are wrong, we would just ask you, Is Cessation conditioned ? No, you say ; then it must be unconditioned. 3 1 These two terms refer to the attainment of Fruition after emergence. — Corny. 2 See above, pp. 142, n. 4, 143, n. 1. 3 Indian logic recognizes four alternatives to our two : is, is not, is and is not, neither is nor is not. The reply here would be in terms of the last. The state is outside that ‘universe of thought’ which com- prises conditioned and its opposite, as much as green is outside music. 192 Of Space YI. 8. 6. Of Space. Controverted Point . — That space is unconditioned. From the Commentary. — Space is of three inodes : as confined or delimited, as abstracted from object, as empty or inane. Of these the first is conditioned ; the other two are mere abstract ideas. But some, like the Uttar apathakas and Mahigsasakas, hold that the two latter modes also, inasmuch as mental fictions they are not condi- tioned, must therefore be unconditioned. 1 Th. — If space is unconditioned, as yon affirm, you must class it with Nibbana, or you must affirm two of unconditioned — and so two Nibbanas — all of which you deny. . . . 2 Can anyone make space where there has been no space? Then one can make that which is conditioned unconditioned — which you deny. ... So, too, for the reverse process. . . . 3 Again, if you admit that birds go through space, moon, sun, and stars go through space, supernormal move- ment is worked in space, 1 the arm or hand is waved in space, clods, clubs, a supernormally moved person, arrows are projected through space, you must state as much about movement through or in the unconditioned — which you cannot. . . . 4 Again, if people enclose space when they make houses or barns, do they enclose the unconditioned ? Or when a well is dug, does non-space become space ? Yes ? Then does the unconditioned become conditioned? Or, when an empty well, or an empty barn, or an empty jar, is filled, does { space ’ disappear ? If so, does the uncon- ditioned disappear? 5 U. M . — If then it is wrong to say space is un- conditioned, is it conditioned ? You deny. Then it must be unconditioned. 2 1 Akase . . . iddhirj vikubbanti. 2 On space see Bud. Psy. Eth., lviii. 194, and cf. MiUnda , ii. 103, and 816 f. 330-31. Is Void Space visible ? 193 7. Of Space as visible. Controverted Point. — That space is visible. From the Commentary . — This is the view, among the Andhakas for instance, namely, that because we have cognition of enclosed space, such as keyholes, etc., therefore all void space is visible. They argue that in that case space is rupa, that is, material visible object. In the absence of a Sutta authorizing this, the opponent rejects it, yet insists on the testimony of pillar-interstices, etc., as visible things. In such cases, however, what is seen are the pillars, trees, and so forth. That what lies between is space, there being no visible objects, is an act of ideation, not of sense-cognition.' 1 This applies throughout. Hence the opponent’s argument is not conclusive. 1 Th. — If this is so, you commit yourself to saying that space is visible material, visible object and element, and therefore, as such, is either blue-green, yellow, red, or white, is cognizable by the eye, impinges on the eye or organ of vision, enters into the avenue of sight — which you deny. . . . 2 Substituting ‘space’ for ‘visible object,’ you must affirm or deny that ‘ because of eye and space visual con- sciousness arises. 5 If wot, your proposition falls through. If you agree, you cannot quote any Suttanta to establish this. All that the Suttanta says is : ‘ Because of eye and visible object visual consciousness arises,’ 2 as you agree. Hence you must either call space visible object (with its properties), or fail to maintain your position. 3 A. — If I am wrong, you must nevertheless admit that you ‘ see ’ the interval between two trees or two posts, the space in a keyhole or in a window. Surely then space is visible. 1 Manodvaravinnanap uppajjati, na cakkhuvin- nanai). This advance in psychological explanation is a notable trait in Buddhaghosa’s age. 2 Sayyutta-NiTc., ii. 72; iv. 33 ; Majjhima-Nih., i. 259. T.s. V. 13 194 Of Visibles YI. 8. 8. Of the Four Elements , the Five Senses, and of Action as Visibles. Controverted Point . — That each of these is visible. From the Commentary . — This opinion is also maintained by such as. the Andhakas, from the fact that we ‘ see ’ oscillations in stones, water,, flames, trees, as well as colours of sentient surfaces and the shapes of hands, feet, etc., on occasion of bodily intimations. The rest may be understood by the text. 1 1-9 The discourse is verbatim identical with VI. 7, each of the ‘four elements,’ ‘the organ of sight’ alone, ancl ‘bodily action ’ being substituted for ‘ space.’ The opponent’s rejoinders- are severally as folloivs : A . — But do we not see earth, a stone, a mountain ? water? fire blazing? trees waving in the wind? The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body? anyone advancing, retreating, looking forward, looking backward, stretching forth, retracting? 1 Pali-anusarena. The psychology is similar. The four ‘ele- ments ’ were not the material compounds, earthy, etc., but the abstract common qualities distinguishing the four groups so-called. I n d r i y a is the controlling power or faculty exercised in sense. Kamma is the notion of ‘ action ’ in overt physical movements. All that we actually see are changing coloured surfaces. On D h a t u, I n d r i y a, see Compendium: Notes s.vv.